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  (#1) Old
bobs23 bobs23 is offline
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The decline of Jam To This - 03.28.05, 12:40 PM

We have similar threads running elsewhere, but I put it here in hopes something might be done. When this site began it was mostly VH traders here, all shared as best as possible and life was good. As this site has grown in popularity more and more users came on, which in it's self is good. As with anything you get people that will abuse others generosity, and just take take take. Not everyone has shows to offer, but please do your share of giving back.

It has been dicussed earlier about have share ratio enforcement. There have been other discussions about other ways to enforce sharing. But the bottom line is NOTHING has been done. There are about 20 people here, that through thier generosity have posted most of the shows on this site, myself included. There have been a few of these people that are sick to death of the give me, give me attitude that seems to have taken over this site, which now includes me. People like Lou for example work thier asses off to get the best possible sources and shows to share. What I see is generally 50 to 100 DL and only 10 or so thank yous, and usually the same people doing this. The rest not even a thanks, and the second they have thier copy jump off. Look at the member list, greater than half the people don't have a .50 share ratio. And again all I seem to see is I want this and I want that. I have been a trader/ taper for about 30 years and before BT all we did was trades, well I think that is the way I will go now. I'm not going away as some have done, but I will not longer torrent my shows. The trades I do will have notes on them for no torrent. I wish to continue getting my shows out to trade, but if that request is not honored then I will go away and be a hoarder.

Thanks for reading.
Bob S.
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  (#2) Old
SIBLY SIBLY is offline
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03.28.05, 01:36 PM

I’m sorry to read this; I can get a good feel for you anger. However, I think enforcing s/r has caused trouble at places like EZT. Now, I am not an initial seeder here; my VH collection is too small. However, I think my s/r is good enough to be part of this conversation. Hit ‘n’ run lechers are always going to be a problem for various reasons; some reasons are legitimate.

I really think the bigger issue here is the lack of respect and courtesy that you hit on. I try to say “Thanks” and rate seeders every time (a nice feature, but other sites I use don’t do this so I stupidly forget). To me, that is common courtesy. I can’t even tell you how many times I have offered ‘props’ to Lou, whom I know through Zep trading, and whom I hold in high esteem in this crazy bt world.

Perhaps it is an education thing here, I am not quite sure. It may be the same mentality that thinks MP3 is ok. I do not want to generalize the fans of certain groups, but my growing experience tells me that the fans of some bands demand more (lineage, etc.) than others. Based on what I have seen elsewhere, many (not all) VH fans are not quite up the learning curve yet. I think people are learning, thank in part to this site. Hopefully, it will improve. I think this site can help. But it needs ‘leaders’.

I don’t think this site is declining. I still see control over quality (no mp3, etc). I think it is growing, and growth causes problems. And the tracker change that required all new torrents, while seemingly a good long term change, probably didn’t help short term. But this is a nice site, including the new tracker. I hope it continues to grow. And I hope you stay a part of it.


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  (#3) Old
bobs23 bobs23 is offline
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03.28.05, 02:19 PM

Hi Sibly, I see you over at TTD, there seems to be kind of a similar thread going over there. Part of my bitch here is that there is very little system maint. at least visually. The tracker stats are all whacked out and have been for days. Maybe more education for the users here is what needs to be done. At other sites Iv'e had torrents stay alive for weeks, here if you're not on it within the first 2 days it's dead. I haven't yet scratched the surface of my collection to share. I don't really expect thanks for posting shows, but it's nice to get. All I ask is people give back what they take. Iv'e seen on numerious occations during the early part of a seed people jump on and then off because the show is only 30 or 40% up. It's left to the 10 or so people that are willing to stick it out with the initial seed. Again look at the member stats, there are more than a few people with 1 or 2 posts that have DL'd 50gig and under .50 share. These are the people that make me puke. Just greedy me me me fuckers. I dunno maybe I'm just too oldfashioned for this world.
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ron ron is offline
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03.28.05, 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobs23
Just greedy me me me fuckers. I dunno maybe I'm just too oldfashioned for this world.
I won't name names, but I've even seen it in the posts here. Some of the "requests" seem more like "demands" these days.

Like you said at the top, it's the same set of people seeding. However, with inclusion of other bands (besides VH and related) it looks like there are a few more people willing to seed.

Maybe we need to sit down with the Tutorials again and clean them up and simplify them. This "technology" is old-hat to many of us, but can be pretty daunting for the newcomer, even if they've been trading and online for a long time....
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03.28.05, 03:09 PM

I don't see how enforcing a share ratio can be a bad thing (please explain the problem SIBLY, I'm interested). If you can't afford to keep a show on your hard drive long enough to upload at least half as much as you download, then you shouldn't be able to download it for free. I would love to download more than I do, but my connection is slow. Which means I have to leave shows up until the share ratio is over one, so I may miss out on some newer shows. It is still cheaper than buying bootlegs and quicker than trading by mail. Maybe most of the problem people didn't have to do it the old way.

All the folks I've dealt with at Presence seem to be decent. I haven't used the tracker because of the bizarre amount of Zep shows I now own thanks to the direct downloads. Was an upload ratio enforced when the tracker was functioning?

Aside: I saw some kids on the traders den bitching about getting kicked off of presence. I couldn't figure out what they had done, but they said that they couldn't get back on because "he checks your IP address, I mean I'm only 12". Some enforced courtesy could be a good thing.

The zappateers tracker doesn't have a share ratio enforcement that I know of. They seem to do alright and leave shows up for a long time. Out of enlightened self-interest, I would prefer it if people were forced to keep their share ratios high because it would mean that people with slow connections would have a better chance of finishing shows.

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  (#6) Old
bobs23 bobs23 is offline
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03.28.05, 03:30 PM

[QUOTE=ron]I won't name names, but I've even seen it in the posts here. Some of the "requests" seem more like "demands" these days.

The shame of this rant is that the people it's being directed at will probably never see this. They're too busy Dl'ing to notice that this site even has discussion threads.
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  (#7) Old
TwoFoolsAMinute TwoFoolsAMinute is offline
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03.28.05, 03:35 PM

I don't get too bent out of shape about this issue, because there's always enough help for the folks that give back to get theirs. There's always going to be leachers that don't give back. But sometimes is does get ridiculous here. When I seed a new show, I usually try to get off of it soon after I have seeders because it seems that if I stay seeding for another day or two, I'll end up seeding it alone and can't move on when I'm ready. Seems the attitude is that "as long as there is one seeder, they don't need me."

This problem is especially big with the DVD's. When someone signs on for a DVD they should plan in advance to put a lot of time into it.

Enforcement could backfire based on someone finding the site for the first time, and getting on some torrents late in the game that don't continue on. If a torrent is played out, you can't really continue to upload. Perhaps there is a way around that...I don't know. But, there's still a lot of good folks here that are awesome to trade with.

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  (#8) Old
bobs23 bobs23 is offline
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03.28.05, 03:46 PM

I don't expect people to have trade ratios like I have. Two fools I remember when you felt as I do now. All I pretty much do is upload shows, most of the stuff posted here I already have, or do not want. I see though, that one by one the "major" uploaders are all piping in here. It is hard for a noob to get ratios up, and there should be a grace period. As stated earlier, there should be a warning system for those who have been around for a while. Again I REALLY want to share my shows, but I ain't gunna sweat it if I don't.
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  (#9) Old
TwoFoolsAMinute TwoFoolsAMinute is offline
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03.28.05, 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobs23
Two fools I remember when you felt as I do now.
Yeah, I was upset once, but that was because someone downloaded my DLR show then started talking trash about DLR and the show. But, I overreacted. Thanks for what you've given, and if you don't see fit to give anymore, I totally understand. This place can try your patience sometimes.

And, yes, the plan Lou set forth in the other thread that had a grace period and warnings sounds good enough for me. And I do think people have a little trouble understanding how it works. I recommended JTT to someone at Rotharmy once, and he reported back the next day that he had downloaded and seeded the show already, I checked his ratio, and it was somewhere in the neighborhood of .20. I think he thought that as long as he was uploading the whole time he was downloading it was equal.

So, all of these are good ideas. And hopefully we can do this without having to be dicks about it. But the only thing you know for certain is you never know.
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  (#10) Old
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03.28.05, 05:10 PM

A 50GB grace period should be more than fair. Once someone d/l's that much, a share ratio of at least .50 is not too much to ask.

I very much enjoy getting new shows; and I am happy to share and help others get shows. Doesn't seem like too tough of a concept.
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  (#11) Old
bobs23 bobs23 is offline
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03.28.05, 05:12 PM

Well I stand behind Lou, yourself and others. Being an old fart, I like they way it used to be. Be community where everyone shares and plays nicely. I would rather share.
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  (#12) Old
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03.28.05, 05:42 PM

Um, since I am technologically retarded, can someone explain to me why we can't get a tracker that is accurate?

ffoner


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  (#13) Old
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03.28.05, 06:41 PM

I think 50 GB is WAYYYY too much of a grace period. ONE GB is enough as far as I'm concerned.

I'm more about time than GB. You get 30 days to get it up, or you're gone unless you have yet to DL a GB yet.
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  (#14) Old
Pyrotech Pyrotech is offline
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03.28.05, 07:36 PM

I feel for all the good users on this board that seed. I myself have seeded 20+ shows since i have joined. To bad we lost all the "user stats" with the site changes. As far as the leachers go, most of them are never going to change. It REALLY pisses me off, but on the other hand i have come to accept thats just the way its always going to be with many. What i try to do is when i seed a show, i wait till 4 or 5 have completed it. Then i pull out and let them seed. The ones that fuck off on the seed screw it for the othrs. I usuly wait for days, then seed again with a WARNING about "the last time for this show" BEWARE! SEED! If the users know that us frequent seeders are not going to reseed, or seed anymore.. it may change the ways they use this service. The share ratio rule is good to, and i'm all for it. 50% is a good number to inforce. I myself try to keep about 60% +. For me, once i hit the 50% give back and there are lots of seed left.. i like to stop and move on to my own seed post. If the other seeds take off, i dont mind comming back on to help.. and have.

Ide rather keep a 60%+ ratio with giving this board show after show and let the others seed to the rest once i have givin to 4 or 5 users. This way the website always has fresh new shows to make us that much better, and i can move on to seeding another show. Its just getting the damn leachers that dont give us shows.. to seed the fucking show there downloading once its finnished. I seeded the Moltey Crue show and pulled out when there was 5 seeds. Days go buy.. they all leave and there are 50+ leachers waiting to finnish. I had to go back in and give it to 4 more again.. and hope they continue seeding. I dident have the connection speed to spare at that time, but did it anyways.

I say inforce a 50% share ratio, and let users know on your seed to.. BEWARE!


Just my 2 cents
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  (#15) Old
psuman psuman is offline
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03.29.05, 04:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobs23
At other sites Iv'e had torrents stay alive for weeks, here if you're not on it within the first 2 days it's dead. I haven't yet scratched the surface of my collection to share. I don't really expect thanks for posting shows, but it's nice to get. All I ask is people give back what they take.
Bobs 23 you are exactly right about this. If you don't jump on something in the first day or two you miss it. I have tried to start some vines so that others can get some of the shows and because I share a computer with my family so I cannot seed a show. Even with that situation, I have no problem keeping my share ratio over 1. There is no reason that you can't have a decent share ratio.

I also don't think that it is too much to thank a seeder for posting a show. My collection would not be anything without the sharing by Lou, yourself, ffoner, Wooda and others. Twofools does a great job sharing what he has as well.

DVDs is another situation. I am able to get DVDs from EZtree, but here I can never get them because they disappear too quick.

I'm also with Lou, that you don't need to wait for 50 Gb to enforce a share ratio. This site can continue to be great, lets keep it that way.
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  (#16) Old
pigsinspace pigsinspace is offline
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03.29.05, 06:04 AM

I have sort of mixed feelings about all this leechers and ratios and such. I mean, this is my first post here, I DL'ed one show only, I did not say thanks to the seeder but I do not think I am an asshole for this.
On the other hand I am trying to keep good ratios, and I am able to have >1 ratios because I use my customers' bandwidth other than what I have on my ADSL line (but please do not tell them I do that!). It's very hard to keep a good share ratio when your own line has a .25 ratio. I tryed myself when I am home for a while; simply sometimes isn't possible, but nevertheless I have a >2 ratio on EZT where I passed the TB in uploads.

I agree that here the torrents are too short. I couldn't seed more my show because the tracker changed, the torrent died and never went to life again. I do not check here regularly and I've lost quite some shows I'd like to get just because I was some minutes too late.

I think that all the thing about BT is sharing. I like to share and I put into account that there are ungrateful leechers, that many do no thank you, that some will piss you off with stupid comments. But a single thank you will make my day. And when I seed I know there are people leeching which does not need really to say thanks because I know they're doing a great work by themselves - like Lou for example. I think that it's part of the game taking into account all the bad things.
What I do not really stand is when you start seeding your show again for that leecher who's whining for a seed, and then jumps off when he's finished leaving you with maybe another leecher. Grrr!!!
But the worst is seeding a show knowing that there is a leecher that sells your show on Ebay before it's finished or that you know he does that bad bad thing of selling stuff. This is actually why I stopped seeding stuff on EZT. But I am considering starting seeding something here, because I "need" to share something every now and then

Well, thanks for your attention, and excuse me for my non perfect English.

Last edited by pigsinspace; 03.29.05 at 06:07 AM.
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  (#17) Old
greenpaw5150 greenpaw5150 is offline
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03.29.05, 06:32 AM

I'm just curious about something, I noticed that my d/l and u/l numbers have been the same the last couple days, yet I downloaded the Pensacola Balance DVD (it finished sometime on Monday) and I've left the window open for at least 24 hrs now (it's still open as I type this) and the u/l rate has been steady 35 kb/s - 35 kb/s? Those numbers should have changed a bit over the last day or so?

Is there something wrong with the tracker or do those numbers update every couple days?

I just want to make sure I'm staying on the sharing side of the street.
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dolphin19 dolphin19 is offline
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03.29.05, 06:49 AM

I think the ratio thing is a good idea. I try and help out as much as possible, I've even overcame my upload viginity here by uploading the Motley Crue Cleveland DVD. Although I ran into a few problems I was able to get it back up and running and hopefully everyone who wanted it got it. I jumpped off as a seeder when there were about 5 seeders because I thought that was fair. I have windows open all the time on both my laptop and desktop at home and usually am doing both seeding and leeching. I enjoy and listen to everything I've aquired from this site because frankly if I'm going to take the time to get it, I'm going to listen to it.

I really enjoy this site and am fairly new so I can't say I've noticed any decline but I'm been on easytree for awhile and I can say the same problems happen over there as I'm sure they do on other sites as well. It's really a neverending issue, let's face it some people are just Bitches, plain and simple.
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  (#19) Old
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03.29.05, 07:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pigsinspace
I have sort of mixed feelings about all this leechers and ratios and such. I mean, this is my first post here, I DL'ed one show only, I did not say thanks to the seeder but I do not think I am an asshole for this.
On the other hand I am trying to keep good ratios, and I am able to have >1 ratios because I use my customers' bandwidth other than what I have on my ADSL line (but please do not tell them I do that!). It's very hard to keep a good share ratio when your own line has a .25 ratio. I tryed myself when I am home for a while; simply sometimes isn't possible, but nevertheless I have a >2 ratio on EZT where I passed the TB in uploads.

I agree that here the torrents are too short. I couldn't seed more my show because the tracker changed, the torrent died and never went to life again. I do not check here regularly and I've lost quite some shows I'd like to get just because I was some minutes too late.

I think that all the thing about BT is sharing. I like to share and I put into account that there are ungrateful leechers, that many do no thank you, that some will piss you off with stupid comments. But a single thank you will make my day. And when I seed I know there are people leeching which does not need really to say thanks because I know they're doing a great work by themselves - like Lou for example. I think that it's part of the game taking into account all the bad things.
What I do not really stand is when you start seeding your show again for that leecher who's whining for a seed, and then jumps off when he's finished leaving you with maybe another leecher. Grrr!!!
But the worst is seeding a show knowing that there is a leecher that sells your show on Ebay before it's finished or that you know he does that bad bad thing of selling stuff. This is actually why I stopped seeding stuff on EZT. But I am considering starting seeding something here, because I "need" to share something every now and then

Well, thanks for your attention, and excuse me for my non perfect English.
Hey "pigsinspace," if you could seed The Police Miami 4 May 1979 both sets that would be great, since nobody who's transferred this can figure out how to do so without digital errors
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  (#20) Old
ron ron is offline
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03.29.05, 07:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pigsinspace
It's very hard to keep a good share ratio when your own line has a .25 ratio.
I don't think the ul/dl ratio of the various pipes make that much difference. For example, my pipe is 5Mbps for downloading (to my computer), but only 384Kbps for uploading (to the Internet).

That's a pretty sad ratio, but it's still very easy to keep up a good bittorrent ratio. It's just a matter of keeping your client open until the ratio reaches 1:1 (or better).
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